I just don’t understand why there are Christians so up in arms about this sign. Christians are constantly citing freedom of speech and religion in their efforts to be heard, but it seems like as soon as someone who disagrees with them tries it, it’s a whole new ball game. That’s frustrating to me because it’s a double standard. It’s like saying we can say whatever we want, even if it offends you, but you can say nothing that may offend me.
Argh!
YUP YUP YUP YUP YUP!!! I thought the same thing today as I was reading the article online. Christians, even the crypt keeper AKA Freddie Phelps, have a right to say whatever they hell they want. But, they have to extend that same freedom to the other side as well. It’s a shame that more Christians don’t think like you.
I’m not sure I hear more Christians citing “freedom of religion/speech” to be heard…in fact, it sure seems like I hear more of other “religions” screaming “freedom of religion” and demanding their “rights”, while stamping out the rights of others. (removing the Ten Commandments from various places, demanding Nativity scenes be taken down, not allowing “Merry Christmas” to be said, etc.)
There is no freedom without discipline.
And…I’m all for no religion. I don’t think there will be religion in heaven…Religion is not of God. Jesus never said “follow my religion”…he said “Follow Me”.
Susan,
There are definitely double standards coming from both sides. I only pointed out the Christian side because that’s the side of the fence I stand on. You know… pulling the log out of “my” own eye before pointing out the speck of dust in my neighbor’s.
Of course the sign is correct. In a world without religions the World Trade towers would still be standing and those 3,000 people who were burned alive, or exploded when they hit the ground, would still be alive today. In a world without religions there would be no christian thugs harassing and threatening science teachers (this really happens all the time, see the link below).
I thank the atheists who made the effort to represent the sane people in this country. Of course it would be even better if people respected our wall of separation and kept their religious nonsense off of public property. There’s enough monuments to stupidity called churches for the god nuts to display their insanity.
The photo of the World Trade towers shows why the world would be better off without Islam. This story about christian cowards yelling at an elderly female science teacher is why the world would be better off without christianity.
ON EDUCATION; Evolution’s Lonely Battle In a Georgia Classroom
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9504E3D81730F93BA15755C0A9609C8B63
Well, that was the mantra of religion in the 1700 and 1800s…”you have freedom of religion, so long as you practice my faith” does the Salem Witch trials ring any bells? I believe that Americans are more tolerant today than they ever have been and Amen for that!
Oh that 10 Commandments argument again. Susan, let’s imagine for a moment that you were a Muslim woman and you needed to go to court. When you walked into the courtroom, you saw a giant plaque of the 10 commandments on the judge’s desk. Would you be 100% sure that you were going to receive a fair trial/hearing??
A judge is supposed to be 100% UNBAISED. I don’t think that’s always possible if you’re carrying a bible in your hand. People of different (or no) faiths should not have to be fearful of not receiving a fair hearing in this country. We all know it happens around the world, but we should expect better here.
As for the Merry Christmas thing, I don’t have a problem with it (Nativity Scenes in public places are ok as well, as long as a menorah, snowman, etc are also included), but I always say Happy Holidays instead. Unless I’m absolutely sure that someone celebrates Christmas, there’s no need to use that phrase.
I fixed two of your comments – you missed off the important distinction. It’s illegal for the US government to complain about someone’s nativity scene (unless it’s a fire-hazard or similar), but it’s similarly illegal for the US govt to set up their own.
If that wasn’t the case, it would completely undermine the idea that the US govt isn’t allowed to reward or punish people for their religious beliefs. Government workers would be able to merrily channel funds to support their chosen belief system. That would give rise to a de facto state-supported religion, like we used to have here in the UK*. Believe me, it causes more trouble than it’s worth. Even if I thought atheism could become my country’s official religious stance, I still wouldn’t want it to.
I have no idea where you got the bit about “Merry Christmas” from. I’m having trouble imagining a situation where that phrase could be used a) by government workers, AND b) with intent to proselytise. Could you point me to your source on this?
* Technically we still do, but over the years it’s become a ceremonial arrangement only. Some would say that that’s bad enough, but at least it’s toothless.
Or some other nutjob would have blown it up on other grounds. Sadly, dogma isn’t the exclusive preserve of religion.
It’s a shame it doesn’t make them *think*. After all, it doesn’t say ‘Imagine No God’ or even ‘Imagine no belief in God’.
I do agree with Lifewish though that, for many people, religion is just an excuse to express the very worst side of humanity. If there was no religion there would be some other excuse.
Or we could try all these fun ones too:
Or how about this set:
Certainly these statements are just as valid as the first, and just as foolish. What if’s are foolishness, because we only know reality. I mean, they’re fun for stories like “It’s a Wonderful Life”, but they do no more than attempt to make the point of the author.
And what do you know of Middle Eastern law? Are they fair, unbiased and impartial? I’ll tell you, it’s common practice there that he who has the most money gets the rulings. The United States Criminal Justice System is one of the least corrupt in the world– and we all know upon what that was based. So, yes, I would expect a Muslim to trust a court that was based on the Christian doctrines of loving your neighbor over the corrupt Islamic ones of “death to the infidels” and where women are mere property.
Perhaps a new comparison is in order. This one doesn’t make your point.
removing the Ten Commandments from various places, demanding Nativity scenes be taken down, not allowing “Merry Christmas” to be said, etc
sigh. I know musicguy already commented on this, but its so tired now, such a lame attempt at whining.
1) Its not “various places” its government buildings, including courthouses, public schools, federal highways, and the like. No one is taking your 10 commandments away from you. They are following the constitution by trying to keep state sponsorship of a religion out (and it is a very hard job apparently)
2) No one is asking you to take down the nativity scene on your property. Again, its government buildings, roads, and so forth.
3) Please find me one single law that says you have to say “holidays” instead of “christmas”. Go ahead, look in any state, any community. Its a marketing decision. Walmart and others have realized that most poeple in the country are sane, and know that catering to one religion it not fair and doesnt recognize other of a different religion or no religion.
However forcing your employees to say “christmas” or celebrate christmas if they are not christian IS wrong and against the law. So isn’t it just easier to be safe?
Besides, how does someone wishing you friendly “happy holidays” take away from your personal celebration of christmas? How do any of your complaints above prevent you from celebrating Christmas or any other day with your family, friends or entire church? How do any of your complaints about prevent you from following your religion, on your own dime and in your own time?
Hey! Nice rhyme!
Hey! another time!
Ho Ho ho! That’s Fine!
Wow, min.. more baseless assertions… oh goody. I’m sure Lifewish can comment in a more complete and concise fashion than me.. however…
* In a world without religion we would be drones without rights like in atheist nations.
you mean like Japan, scandinavia and France? I’m sure they really feel like drones. Have you even traveled out of this country? Have you actually met any russians or chinese (the ones I’m presuming you are meekly trying to refer to). Did they appear to be drones to you? Could it be the stripping of free will rather than the atheism that causes your horribly wrong perception? Want to see a drone? go to a church (I think its catholic churches, but perhaps its other sects also), listen to the people repeat things after the priest, I cant think of anything that sounds more like a bunch of vacuous automatons. first time i heard it, i really got freaked out. Sounded like the Borg from star trek.
* In a world without religion, we would all believe that we were nothing but animals, and therefore there would be logical reasons to terminate those that were inconvenient, using forced sterilization, and our lives would be totally dictated by the government.
I see, because japan, france, and denmark have a huge sterilization programs and genocidal programs. Perhaps you mean those homicidal tibetan buddhists? And exactly how do you mean that our lives are not dictated by the government here? Arent you forced to pay taxes? Dont you have to be a soldier if you are drafted? Aren’t you forced to go to school? Clearly atheism causes genocide because I sit here planning my next mass murder just like Jim jones, eric rudolph, David Koresh, al qeada, and other religizealots.
* In a world without religion, we would have no World Trade towers, because there would be no capitalistic drive or protestant work ethic.
I see, somehow in your mind, you think the religion=capitalism as can clearly be seen by countries like Iran, Somalia, and Venezuela. Have you even been to secular Singapore?
* In a world without religion, a majority of the music that we have today would not exist, since a huge portion of music is liturgical.
* In a world without religion, there would be less art, since a good percentage of art is religious based.
Ok, I’ll go for these two. However you have no idea how much music and art would have been made without religion. Its just as likly we would still have the same amount, just made of different things. This is evidenced by the amount of art and music that is secular that is output today. It just isnt sanctioned by the church (who historically had tons of cashola and acted as their own NEA – something which is often tried to be eliminated by the right).
Half of your first 4 silly examples are EXACTLY the point of the original sign, trying to cordon off some religions over others is useless. As you sit there trying to convince people that the bible in true in any way shape or form you are legitimizing radicals in your sect, just like moderates of islam legitimize radical muslims. You cant have moderates and no radicals. It has never happened and never will. Best to teach human beings to get along because there are only human beings, and we are responsible for all of our actions and reactions. Only humans.
Your posts are generally good for a laugh.
Many of their governments are theocracy based. An example is the recent teddy bear incident. The teacher supposedly insulted their religion. Somehow, in their heads, that equates to 40 lashes, prison time, or a hefty fine. The sentence was reduced because of international pressure, but what if she hadn’t been a citizen of another government, with their political clout to intervene?
IIRC, Greek and/or Roman courts. Evidence is needed to convict someone of a crime. Also, that crime can’t be religious in nature. It has to negatively affect someone else for it to be a crime.
Doing a search of the KJV, I get 61 hits from “put to death”. That would scare the crap outta me. If our courts and government followed the Bible, then the death penalty would be much more prevailant.
Right back at ya.
I think the sign is offensive simply because its incendiary. It’s meant to evoke a shocking feeling….and it lumps all religions together into one category, implying that religion, in and of itself, is evil.
I agree with Lifewish’s comment that if it weren’t religion, it would be something else.
Do I care enough about it to go on some rant? Not really.
tech, as usual — see the trees and not the forest. I’ll make this quick– the point is that what ifs are foolish. There are too many variables and you best deal with reality rather than wondering what might have happened when.
Berlzebub — I’m talking about the character of courts in other lands in general, not about one court case in specific. In the U.S. the crime has to be something that violates the laws, whether they effect someone else or not. I’m not following this one down the rabbit trail.
And lastly, something back on topic. The more I thought about it, I came to this understanding. The sign above is offensive to Christians and other people of religion and it’s meant to be. It’s meant to take a time of year when people are celebrating something special to them and belittle it and make fun of it.
It’s like tech and Musicguy’s favorite fundamentalist, Fred Phelps, standing outside of the funerals of dead service men and women protesting them, or the signs that people hold stating “God hates fags.” It’s insensitive, it’s in your face, and it’s offensive.
Now, while I agree that Christians shouldn’t let these things offend them, in that I think that everyone gets offended way too easily these days, I also think that we shouldn’t deny that it is offensive. And I think that atheists are hypocritical when they tell Christians that they shouldn’t talk to people in authority to try to get rid of something offensive.
It’s the same thing the atheists do when they try to remove a cross from a flag of a state, etc. Except that the Christian symbols have been around much longer and were not placed there for the purpose of offending anyone– which this sign was.
Min, you’re just ticked because Techie refuted each and every one of your “what ifs” with his usual accuracy.
You can find it offensive, just like I find the 10 commandments in a courthouse offensive. The difference is, the sign gets to stay. More power to the atheists for not being afraid to speak up for what they believe. The universe knows that the christians haven’t been reticent, especially my buddy, Phelps
As I told Terri and Amanda on numerous occasions: until more moderate christians begin to speak up and out regarding the hypocricy and nonsense within the Christian faiths (as they both do), the “outsiders” will continue to lump all religion together, which really is a shame.
But as long as the “christians” continue to push for laws based on christianity, social and moral ultra conservatism, etc, the atheists are going to continue to push long and hard. You’re threatening THEIR freedom, and that’s not acceptable.
wanna see something offensive?
Why do atheist feel the need to speak up? Why is it only fair when no religions are recognized, or all given equal time. That is the reason. Tax payer money is being spent wasting time like this, further alienating us from the rest of the world and inciting more conflict between those countries that are not primarilty christian and the US.
When you do shit like this, ever action you do as a nation looks like trying to use the military to spread a religion.
when will we ever learn to take religion out of government? Let people believe what they want without sponsoring one over another.
Man… the typos…. sorry. Hope you can trudge through that.
Terri,
I for one would actually like to hear your full perspective on it.
I’m not sure it was intended to incite. It was intended to provoke thought and discussion like we are having here. Raactions like Mins is totally expected and allows for more discussion. Its genrally good to get the 900 lb gorillas off the table by talking about it.
But, apparently it doesnt matter what atheists put up to celebrate a holiday season, folks wont like it. I mean, really, is a tree with some book covers on it truly that hard to cope with?
Tech,
My full take is pretty much the same as my short take.
The poster is not meant to promote discussion or be thought-provoking. It is meant to slam religion by associating it with a terrorist act.
That hardly seems to be a point of view open to discussion.
When people overreact and get all up in arms, they are fulfilling the wishes of the poster-putter-upper.
The best response to being baited is to ignore it.
Why do I feel like everybody has completely missed the point? This shouldn’t be an us vs. them issue. I was trying to point out that both sides do the same thing and complain about it. That’s all.
Amanda, it’s our job to miss the point at least once a week
Kidding aside, this really shows the deep divide that exists in America right now, and how that divide continues to widen. Both “sides’ are fighting hard for what they believe, and I feel that the most outspoken feel that there is no room whatsoever for compromise.
You are certainly a moderate in this skirmish, and that is very much needed right now. You walk the middle ground and that’s what will bring everyone together in the end. I can’t say I envy your position, especially if you’re getting hate mail from the god fearing types. Shame on them.
Tech: I would comment, but the blog engine won’t let me write anything decent for some reason.
It only lets you write something crappy? That is weird!
I feel teh same about teh religous attack on Phillip Pullman’s “His Dark Materials” trilogy. Christian allegories like Narnia or LOTR (well, arguably, in Tolkien’s case)are hailed by the Christian lobby while a film like The Golden Compass almost justifies Pullman’s critique of Christianity because many of those who complain are so anti-intellectual or devoid of reasoning facilities they really do resemble the religious types in HDM. It’s almost as though the religious right need something to react against to vindicate their existence, and unfortunately it’s not poverty or violence or anything as trivial as that! In a country operating under complete separation of Church and State it almost should be “no religion” in terms of government, at any rate. But then, I live in Australia, so what would I know?:) Matt C