Discrimination in the Locker Room
Nov 5th, 2007 by Amanda
I just got into an interesting discussion with a friend - and we both have very different opinions on the issue. He is of the opinion that if you’re homosexual, you should never be allowed in a school locker room.
I find this idea to be both preposterous and morally repugnant.
I do see the reasoning behind it. It’s pretty much the same reason we don’t allow male teachers in the girls locker room or vice versa. But to me, it opens too many discrimination doors. It’s akin to racial segregation before Affirmative Action.
And to me, if you’re going to use that reasoning as your reason for not allowing gay teachers in the locker room, then you should be perfectly fine with allowing them in the locker rooms of the opposite sex. If it’s the attraction that bothers you, and the potential things that could happen because of it, then that would solve the problem. Except in this case, that wasn’t an acceptable alternative. That seems…somewhat hypocritical. It tells me that the logic and motive behind the belief is not just what was presented - there’s an agenda.
If we start with the locker room, where does it end? Separate restrooms? Separate fitting rooms in department stores?
Sounds a little like a “whites” water fountatin and a “colored” water fountain, doesn’t it?
hmmm… cool one.
This isn’t a ‘gays in the military’ scenario. That stupid ‘controversy’ was about whether or not gay people would be looking at someones ass rather than fighting a battle (as far as I could tell). As if anyone gets horny with bullets flying overhead.
I haven’t worked out an answer for this one yet. I’ve never really thought about this before. Let me ask you this: If its OK for gay men to be in the mens locker room, why not women?
a male locker room is dominated by heterosexual males (unless the locker room is located in a primarily gay place, like a gay health club or something).
Keeping women out of the predominately naked heterosexual male environment, protects the women, from leering eyes, verbal comments or abuse, and worse.
My feeling is that introducing a gay man into the same environment has an opposite effect. The hetero men feel like they are the ones being glared at. however the minority of gay men, are also subject to possible verbal and physical abuse, just like the women. Keeping gay men out, may offer the same protection that the women are given.
Who are we protecting by separating the locker rooms? Is there a different solution? Such as personal changing areas in a single, larger, locker room? something too small to fit 2 people (grin). I can’t say I particularly enjoy getting changed in front of anyone, man or woman, except my wife.
Well said, Amanda! You also need to understand that in this day and age, coaches/teachers stay clear of the changing area when students are changing, whether they be gay or straight. Following this way of thinking, we’d also have to get rid of all gay and lesbian: atheletic trainers, doctors, nurses, EMT’s, tailors/dress fitters, etc, etc.
The comment just seemed to intimate that gays and lesbians cannot control their gaze, or that they prey on changing kids, taking a mental picture for deposit in the masturbatory bank for later use (disgusting).
That’s why I got so upset. Homo doesn’t equal pedaphile. Pedaphile equals pedaphile, and we all know that a vast majority of them are STRAIGHT!
There is a large gulf between being gay, and being a pervert who gets joy out of watching kids in the locker room. Homosexuality is a form of perversion, but being homosexual does not mean you will get joy viewing kids.
Now, this is a lot different then segregation based on color as you aluded to because it has to do with minors. Now, I have a 6 year old son. Do I want him getting dressed in front of a homosexual, or a teacher of the opposite sex, not really. My objection though is to him being in the same room as an adult in charge who is not his family. If I make no sense I am sorry, but there really is no comparrison here.
Homosexuality is a form of perversion
If you mean different than the majority, then yeah sure, so is red hair and green eyes.
If you mean something else, why not say exactly what you mean by that nonsense (I see a big thread coming on).
When I read this, I wasn’t thinking of kids in a lockerroom. do kids even know if they are gay?, I guess by highschool perhaps. I dont think this applies to young kids and adults should stay out of the locker rooms unless they are needed in an emergency (I think, again I have not thought about this too much).
I thought the post was about adult locker rooms. I didnt see that you wrote school locker room.
woops…I just left that site….I don’t know why I ever even visit. It just gives me a headache trying to explain something to someone who doesn’t want to hear an explanation.
Just to be clear - I didn’t post this so that a thread can get going to bash the person who made the original comment. This post was my effort to explain my position on the issue.
Carl -
You really didn’t make much sense. It sounds to me like you’re saying you’d never let your kid be supervised by an adult who isn’t family. Is that what you were trying to say? That’s an odd position to take - and one that seems to be unhealthy.
Tech -
The conversation was specifically concerning school locker rooms for gym class and sports teams. I’m not sure it’s a good position to take that adults stay out of locker rooms. I’ve even seem some schools where you had to go through the locker room to get to the coach’s office (of course, it’s entirely possible that I’ve only seen that on tv, I’m not sure).
Agreed,
I dont remember adults in our lockerroom. They should be on hand and available, and be able to hear what is going on. But in these days where every single school in america has one pervert in it, i think its probably OK to keep adults close, but not IN locker rooms.
Its OK to have to go through the locker room to get to the coaches office, the idea is to not have the potential for a pedophile hanging out leering at the kiddies. The most liked teachers tend to be the creeps (we had one in our school, he was a latin teacher and track coach).
terri,
eh?
I think I mean I am a little flaky on it. I have feelings both ways.
tech..
eh?
not sure what you mean
Amanda,
Didn’t mean to bash, if that’s what I did.
Terri -
You didn’t. I just wanted to make sure the conversation didn’t denegrate in that direction.
Terri,
woops…I just left that site….I don’t know why I ever even visit. It just gives me a headache trying to explain something to someone who doesn’t want to hear an explanation.
Left what site? explain what? to whom?
I was referencing the site that Amanda is talking about. I didn’t link to it because she didn’t link to it or name it. Not trying to be vague on purpose….just trying to be respectful of her wishes.
We had adults in our locker room. In fact, the coaches offices were in the locker rooms. It’s a tough situation to face. We absolutely must keep women out of men’s locker rooms and men out of women’s locker rooms, no matter the sexual orientation.
I agree that probably 99.9% of homosexuals are able to control their gaze, etc., as a normal heterosexual would be able to do. However, there is that .1% who are/could become pedophiles. Same as with a heterosexual person. So, no matter the sexual orientation, children must be protected in the locker rooms from sexual assult/harassment.
How do we do this? Accountability. Always have several adults around at once. At my high school, we had three coaches of each gender, so there were always several adults around. This isn’t foolproof, but it quickly lowers the chances of abuse. Also, a child is never to be alone with an adult, of either gender. This protects the child from potential abuse and protects the adult from potential accusations.
On the edge- thanks for realizing that a small percentage of homosexuals are pedaphiles. It seems that not everyone is “in the know” on that very important point.
If anyone has a study stating that fact, please send it my way. I know I’ve read it countless times before, but I’m having difficulty coming across said studies.
I ran cross country, track, and took several gym and weightlifting courses over my high school career. I was in a lot of locker rooms, and even though I was gay I don’t think I found anything or anyone attractive. Maybe that’s just me, but the overwhelming smell of BO must have killed the romantic mood for me.
My coaches throughout high school were mostly female. Obviously, they did not go into the locker rooms. They were in their offices during changing periods which were in earshot just in case any trouble started. If I coach a high school team like I want to someday, I’ll probably take the same policy. Not because I’m afraid I’ll find a student attractive, but simply because having an adult (of any sex or sexual preference) in the room while you are changing is awkward.
It may have to do with the fact you keep spelling pedophile wrong
I had to get past all the christian alarmist sites, and then realized I should check something respectable, like PubMed, and the Mayo Clinic
This finding does not imply that homosexuals are more likely to molest children, just that a larger percentage of pedophiles are homosexual or bisexual in orientation to children.
The problem with this study is that they call a man who has sex with a male child a homosexual pedophile. They do not refer to whether or not there is an adult-adult oritentation. There is no reference to adult relationships. Still, going by this, the data seems to be against what you are saying Musicguy
Heterosexual pedophiles, in self-report studies, have on average abused 5.2 children and committed an average of 34 sexual acts vs homosexual pedophiles who have on average abused 10.7 children and committed an average of 52 acts. Bisexual offenders have on average abused 27.3 children and committed more than 120 acts.
Looks to me like pedophilia is the stronger ‘orientation’ as opposed to having an orientation towards one sex or the other.
Looks like schools are not the only place to be wary of:
Federal data show that 27% of all sexual offenders assaulted family members. Fifty percent of offenses committed against children younger than 6 years were committed by a family member, as were 42% of acts committed against children 6 to 11 years old and 24% against children 12 to 17 years old.2 The study by Abel and Harlow found that 68% of “child molesters” had molested a family member;
I cant quote any more of this…. Its very disturbing. The data that I can’t find, that I think you are trying to get at is:
What is the percentage of sex offenders who are in (or who only have) a heterosexual adult relationship as opposed to a homosexual adult relationship.
I think this study from 1992 is close (but old, back then they didnt even think that any female pedophiles existed)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez
It still suggests the opposite of your position.
Keep in mind.. NONE of the studies link homosexuality to pedophilia. They almost ALL link child abuse experienced by the offender to pedophilia. I’m going to guess that the rate of child abuse among homosexuals is higher than the rate among heteros. Obviously, that assertion needs some backing up…its just a guess.
Yeah, spelling. haha.
I did find what I was looking for:
Robert Geffner, psychologist and editor of the Journal of ChildSexual Abuse, stated that research indicates that homosexuals are no more likely than heterosexuals to violate minors sexually. David Finkelhor, director of Crimes Against Children Research Center at the University of New Hampshire, views sexual attraction to minors as a separate sexual attraction, an opinionalso espoused by John Bancroft, physician and director of the Kinsey Institute for Research in Sex, Gender, and Reproduction. Sexual offender researchers Nicholas Groth and Frank Oliveri studied more than 3,000 sex offenders and did not find even one homosexual man who shifted from an attraction to adult men to a desire for minors.
Conversely, they found that men who were nonexclusively fixated on children, or whoregressed from an attraction to adults to an interest in children, all described themselves as heterosexual and, in addition, usually were homophobic. Similarly, Minneapolis psychologist Peter Dimock concluded that most minor boys are abused by heterosexual men, some of whom are indifferent to the gender of their victims, choosing either girls or boys based on the minor’s availability and vulnerability.
Thank cher for JSTOR- Academic Fulltext journal articles, the peer-reviwed kind, not the fundie junk science kind.
From Homosexuality and Social Policy: The Case for a More Informed Approach
D. J. West
Law and Contemporary Problems, Vol. 51, No. 1, Vice. (Winter, 1988), pp. 181-199
Contrary to popular opinion, homosexuals are not especially prone to make sexual approaches to children. One study charted the sexual arousal of samples of homosexual and heterosexual males to depictions of subjects of varying age. Both groups
showed slight arousal to children; insofar as there was a difference, the heterosexuals showed more frequent and greater responses to young girls
than did the homosexuals to correspondingly young boys. Additionally, clinical experience with child molesters suggests that a regression to pedophilic behavior following some frustration, by men who have had successful sexual relationships with adults, is rarer among homosexuals than heterosexual.
There’s quite a bit more, but I think I’ve made my point. Please let me know if I’ve assumed incorrectly.
I think these studies (yours and mine) are in sync.
Similarly, Minneapolis psychologist Peter Dimock concluded that most minor boys are abused by heterosexual men, some of whom are indifferent to the gender of their victims, choosing either girls or boys based on the minor’s availability and vulnerability
right, there are about 5 times as many heterosexual men as homo. so this would make sense, it does not refer to rate
The first article you posted also suggests what I was thinking was right: pedophilia is an ‘orientation’ separate from homo or hetero. I know I dont have to tell you, but folks like Min read this. The difference between a pedophllic relationship and a homo or hetero relationship is with respect to consent. for good reason we do not consider a child’s willingness to go along with an adult a form of consent. That is why a pedophillic ‘orientation’ is a dysfunctional one that needs treatment or jail, and homosexuality is not.
The second article, at least the text you quoted, doesnt make clear if they looked at convicted or self-described pedophiles or not, when they talk about arousal. It also does not discuss rate (do you have an actual link so I can read the whole thing?)
I think the last sentence of your last quote makes your point. However, I would truly like to see the numbers and the rates.
send me your email and I’ll send you the PDF. without the school password, you won’t see the whole thing.
Our high school gym teacher’s office had his desk in front of a window that faced into the boys’ shower. No other view, just the shower and gave him visual access to every single male body while he pretended to read. This was designed and built when we were in high school. I objected that it seemed really creepy and no one else seemed to get it. Ugh.
We always had an adult in the locker room. It prevents bullying and bashing amongst students. As for ‘perverts’ the greatest danger to ‘kids’ is family, not the coach or teacher.The objectors obviously equate homosexuality and paedophilia as one and the same, no matter how they try to couch it. With the recent court cases of female teachers seducing young men and going to jail, maybe the answer is the teachers need to be physically separated from students at all times, and no contact outside of the classroom.Lets become a society of fearmongers and forget that inappropriate actions in schools (sport teams) is a minority occurence of incidences but the media makes a huge production of it while conveniently ignore all the abuse occurring “in the homes”, the vast majority of abuse and perversion. Facts don’t sell newspapers near as well as fear mongering.