Think like Thinking Man
Oct 24th, 2007 by Amanda
If only more people saw it this way…
First, I am aware that some (agreed, not all) women do suffer unexpected physical and psychological damage because of an abortion. If abortions are to take place, I would want to encourage a climate of more informed consent, with some small time for reflection and for review of the potential consequences. I am aware that for some women, the above may sound patronising and that few, if any women would have an abortion lightly. However, my experience of working with clients is that many women have not always considered all of the consequences of a termination. I want to trust women to make the decision, but I want them to have all the facts before them so that they can make an informed decision.
Secondly, I am concerned that in the present climate, somewhere along the line the rights of the unborn child have been almost completely lost. The pro-abortion camp seem to argue as if the unborn child has no rights whatsoever. It is almost ‘inside womb’ equals ‘dangerous and legally unprotected and not human’, whereas ‘outside womb’ equals ’safe and legally protected and human’.
I am very aware that there is great difficulty in defining when a foetus becomes a viable human being. Perhaps the problem with the abortion debate is that it doesn’t reflect that difficulty and tends to see things in absolute terms. Perhaps what is needed is a more subtle Act that somehow makes more of a conscious effort to give some recogntion to the rights of both parties as the age of the foetus increases. If women are able to make the decision, I want someone to at least have a voice for the unborn child in that process, even if it is only society in general speaking through the values that it enshrines in law.
To me, at least, the present climate and law seem unbalanced. Before the Act, the rights of women were put in jeopardy: now it feels like the rights of the unborn child are largely ignored.
It sure doesn’t help when folks like these refuse to call their opponents by their chosen names. do you see many pro-choice folks calling the pro-lifers something like :Pro-suffering society, pro-increasing adoption
Pro-abortion will always imply to the choir that pro-choice people think abortion is a good thing, that it should be encouraged. Nothing can be farther from the truth.
This debate will never progress until the rhetoric calms down.
Completely lost? Late term abortions are now allowed to be illegal regardless if the mother is about to die or if the child will be born with mentally and physically crippling disease that will kill the child in weeks.
However, I while I do not think there should be some sort of Speaker for the unborn (that truly seems like an absurd concept), I do agree that information should be made available. Ultrasounds taken and shown to the pregnant women, accurate models of a fetus shown, and specific instruction on STDs given after the termination (with all the gross pictures of late term chlamydia, gonorrhea, and syphilis).
Can anyone tell me of a single child that has been aborted, by name? There is a reason you can’t do that. The mother has not assigned “child” status to the fetus. These mothers are not killing children. The converse is not true however, there have been many babies born without a name, but the mothers still assigned “child” status to it at some point. For some that point is conception, for others it is not.
Techskeptic I just want you to know you got me into trouble!
I so agreed with your point about people who don’t think the way to reduce or stop abortion is to make it illegal not therefore being automatically pro-abortion that I left a comment which then earned me a whole post at this blog (http://www.deanabbott.typepad.com)entitled “Buffy the pro-abort”
As you say the debate will never progress until the rhetoric calms down. Sad when really most of us just want the same thing, we just want to go about it different ways.
I’m sorry Buffy, I couldn’t help it, I had to comment over there. Comments are moderated, I wonder if he will let mine through.
I am so sorry if my comments encouraged you to do anything you would not normally do. I think you were quite clear and cogent about what you were saying.
That man is a dick. I can’t think of a better word for it. All mouth, no ears. I am truly happy that you see that the only way to reduce abortion is to create a ‘third team’. One that actually wants to look at the causes and effects and try to reduce the frequency of abortion.
If it helps here are the 3 things I do:
speak up when I see nonsense just like that post. Im glad you did.
Adopt a child: Can anyone reading this give me one single rational reason why you should have your own child? I know the strong urge to have your own once you decide to have kids. But urges aside, I cant think of one that is not selfish (I want to see what it looks like).
We succumbed and made an awesome little daughter. As it stands right now, however, our logic is strong and we are going to try to have the strength to adopt.
Get involved with teenage programs. Teenagers aren’t stupid, they just lack information. Giving them things to do, besides going to parties and doing each other help to reduce unwanted pregnancy. While you are doing things with them, you can mention it once or twice about disgusting parts, responsibility, etc etc. sadly, you have to counter their parents.
I’m sure there are other things people can do to drop the unwanted pregnancy rate, or help with its side effects. People like that dick, are not doing anything as far as I can see.
Now this is my story when pro-lifers squeal with pleasure at restricting abortion access.
I was only jesting about blaming you! I have to take responsibility for my own comments.
Like you say, the point is what do *you* do to reduce abortions, however indirectly? This guy seems more bothered about proving that someone who doesn’t want to make abortions illegal is pro-abortion that actually tackling the problem in itself. Have you seen his latest post?
I can’t see your comment (hmmm) but I’m sure it was very cogent.
Congratulations on your daughter by the way. Having children or not having children, it’s all selfish. You have to think you just upped the numbers of decent people by one.
Thanks about the lil’un. I constantly get smooshy when i think about her and talk to people about her (I’m sure I make them sick). I love having her.
I noticed none of my 3 comments made it up there (as of yesterday). If they don’t appear that guy is …. a… I don’t have any words I feel like writing here. Why do you read that nonsense?
Why do you read this nonsense? Good point, I’m taking him off my list of blogs I look at! I see he has done another post where it looks like he is attempting to take apart your comments. Even in this context your comments still look better than the stuff he is spouting IMHO. And I notice he is not getting a lot of comments agreeing with him or he would be posting them.
BUFFY!
Check it out…. I worte a comment to the post that guy wrote about me (LOL not only did he not let through my original posts, but he took a tiny snippet of them and misrepresented pretty much everything else.)
so I commented on that post. If you care, this was the comment (yes I was annoyed that he censored my original comments and then took it upon himself to ‘represent’ what I was saying, so I was a bit snarky):
—————————————————
LOL pathetic. thats the best you can do? It takes a real man to not let my actual comments through and then try to pretend you are representing my statements accurately.
I see you didnt even have the intestinal fortitude to let my comments through, so people can actually read what I wrote instead of having to read just a small snippet through your slanted eye.
I also notice you are still incapable of actually understanding what pro-choice folks want, or why you should give them the respect to call them by the name that describes their position.
But, fine, lets discuss the paltry amount that you actually let through:
1) it IS alarmist rhetoric to call it killing babies or in your words “inherently evil action.”. by what moral standard? The availability of legal and safe abortion lowers suffering. Suffering for women, suffereing for unwanted kids that are taken to term, and suffering for countries in africa and taxpayer money that gets wasted by not allowing abortion to take place.
As I asked you before (and you so conveniently filtered). Can you name a single baby that was aborted? You can’t because the mothers have not assigned “personhood” to them. That is their right, not yours, not the governments and not gods (who causes his own abortions, he must be pro-choice too).
2) you missed the ENTIRE discussion about why its pro-choice and not pro-abortion. It is not an insult, it is simply inaccurate and yes, it should mean “pro-legal abortion availability” but it does not does it. “Pro-choice” refers to the womens right to choose. THAT is what it refers to. The right to choose, does imply that it must be legal, but also that it is their right. By calling the pro-abortionists you simply are making the jump for them from “Pro-legal-sales” to “pro-alcoholism”. You totally ignore the fact that almost no one (you clearly have prompted one of the few) thinks abortion is a good solution. Its not, the surgical procedure, like any inasive procude involves risk, and the pills are bloody and painful (and some idiots call them “like aspirin”) By using this rhetoric, you ignore the efforts to reduce the actual problem (which I dont see ANYWHERE mentioned on your little blog): unwanted pregnancy.
3) you made a nice strawman out of the heart doctor analogy I was using. I never said pregnancy was a disease. YOU were saying that there are doctors who promote abortion because that is how they make money. I explained that heart doctors dont promote heart disease for them to make money. I never once compared the disease to the pregnancy. I was comparing the motivation. Is that how you deal with commenters? String up strawmen and then act like the big man to take them down. LOL, weak.
Why didnt you post any of my questions about what you yourself do to help lower the abortion rate (besides pontificating in this dark corner of the blogsphere)? Why didnt you answer me when I asked you what you are doing to promote adoption, or how many kids you have adopted?
4 The only thing pro-lifers would have to do is give up their conviction that NO babies should be murdered, people like this commenter say, and then we can get some work done. What seems like an offer to work together, then, is really just a subtle attempt on the part of pro-aborts to silence those who oppose all abortion.
What utter and total nonsense and misrepresentation (I see why you chose to prevent the actual comments from making it through).
The issue is that you will NEVER get that. ever. When we banned alcohol, did alcohol go away? We ban cocaine, is that miraculously gone? Do you read? Anything?
Banning abortion will not eliminate abortion. Yakking away there on your toadstool does absolutely nothing to reduce or eliminate abortion. You dont have to give up your conviction the abortion is wrong. But you actually have to do something about it. I gave lists of things to do in my censored posts, do you do any of them? I’m guessing no. You just like to sit there behind you glowing screen and pontificate.
Yeah, real stand up guy you are. Pathetic. can I presume you will filter this post also?
—————————————————-
soooo… I go and hit submit.. and I get this response:
An error occurred…
You are not allowed to post comments.
LOL…weak.
No way, he automatically blocked your comments??!!!! He must be really scared of you. He left a comment on my blog about abortion (you can imagine) and I left it standing. I have to say I haven’t had any other negative comments from the 40 or so people who have clicked through to my blog from his article.
He actually just posted a fairly sensible article about how Christians shouldn’t get wound up about Hallowe’en. It’s funny how some people can see clearly in some areas and are completely blinded in others.