Monthly Archives: August 2006

I’ve reared my ugly head again. If you read my previous post, you know what I’m talking about. I allowed my anger to speak rather than my love for the Lord. I fear I’ve done more harm than good. The exchange went on a bit further than what I posted below, and I’m downright ashamed of my childish behaviour. I did apologize to Naomi, but I fear that isn’t good enough.

I’m never going to be good enough for God; I know that. But do I have to keep proving it on a daily basis?

As you know, I’ve been participating in discussions about creation/evolution. Some of the discussion happened here, but a lot of it is happening over at the Martian Anthropologist. I’ve been involved in a discussion over there with a woman named Naomi. Naomi hates Christians. She hates anything having to do with Christians and is very quick to point that out. She and I have certainly gotten into it in the past. One reason I think she hates me so much is because I have consistently broken the stereotypes about Christians that she holds. Anyway, I want to post our most recent skirmish because I want to know if I handled it badly.

Warning: I will not censor her post, and she uses some language.

Naomi:

Amanda: Why would you carry a knife to a gunfight?

If I was going to be arguing against evolution, I wouldn’t choose a discredited pseudo-academic like Kent Hovind. He knows just enough to convince clueless fundies of his credentials and “research”; but he isn’t bright enough to talk his way out of a college broom closet! What a hoot that you would be suckered by this charlatan.

My question to you is: why are you such an agent provocateur? I’ve noticed that every time things get calm around here, you bring up evolution. Why is that? You’ve done it three times in the last four weeks. What’s up with you, Amanda? Do you feel the best defense is a good offense? Have you learned misdirection and obfuscation at Karl Rove’s dirty knees? Or was this something you learned at home, growing up in a fundie family?

Are you now going to start complaining that I pick on you? That the rhetoric is too “mean” for you again? I’ve always wondered why you hang out here anyway. You’re just another whimpering apologist like the long-suffering AG (a friend of yours, perhaps? your tag-team partner, maybe?). You’re both masochists with passive-agressive tendencies and a litany of enabling excuses for your faith and your god.

Why the fuck do you bother, Amanda?

I replied:

Naomi, you are a bitter old woman. What has happened to you to send you into this kind of frenzy everytime someone who opposes your belief system speaks up?

Now, if you had actually read what I’ve written you’d know exactly why I’ve brought it up.

The purpose of the entry, in my mind, was to open a dialogue that goes beyond simple bashing and name calling (I’m not saying that’s what you did). Most people don’t understand why or how someone can believe in Creation. I’m laying those ideas down.

Basically, I’m tired of the typical Athiest/Christian banter where each side tells the other they’re wrong. That doesn’t get either side anywhere.

I wrote today:

I’m not a scientist. I don’t have a PhD. Heck, I’ve only done 1 semester towards a MA. Before recently, I’d never even thought about why I believe in Creation other than the Bible says so. Now that I’m studying it, I see a lot of things that make sense (obviously you disagree). But I can’t really get anybody to give me a straight answer about what’s wrong with it. I get a lot of “you’re stupid” or “you need a brain” but that isn’t going to change anything (not that I think my mind can be changed, but at least I’m willing to listen).

And I am willing to listen.

I think what I did was pretty ballsy. You may think it’s stupid. But writing a Creationist post on a Christian blog and then inviting this lot to rip it up? Why on earth would I want to do that unless I was being sincere in my quest? I don’t have the desire to be bashed. No one in their right mind would willingly put themselves through that unless they were trying to learn something. Martian asked me last night if I am honestly seeking the truth or if I think I have it and am trying to defend it. That’s a fair question. As far as God goes, I think that I have the truth and will defend it. As far as the creation/evolution stuff goes, it’s somewhere in between.

You asked why I keep bringing up the topic…there are a few answers to that. I certainly never did it intentionally because “it was calm.” I disagree with that statement anyways…it’s never calm around here when Martian posts something that talks about religion (and it was his post about God hypothetially being a six year old that sparked this). But it has been brought up by me recently because that’s what we’re learning about in my small group. We’re going through Dr. Hovind’s series so it’s been on my mind. So when Martian mentioned something that Dr. Hovind had (in my mind) refuted, I brought it up. And you’ll have to refresh my memory for where I brought it up elsewhere because that one comment is the only one I can think of where I was the instigator. This entire thread came as a result of Martian posting about something I wrote on my own blog, not here.

She replied:

Amanda, you were only half right–I am an old woman. But I’m not bitter. “Bitter” says I have lived a life of constant disappointment. Yet, nothing could be farther from the truth. I am a complex woman, capable of many things, and a genius at one or two. My life has been lived fully and happily, despite a few setbacks and two tragedies.

My world has been filled with knowledge on many subjects. Can you say, that age fourteen (or any age, really) that you decided to learn the Greek alphabet? I can. For no more reason than that I wanted to. I was an early reader, and forever an avid reader. My friend Kathy calls me an “information sponge”. Can you say that? I find joy in learning about all sorts of things, about all kinds of cultures. Can you say that?

I have never tried to narrow my life to just one issue and “fit the policy around that point”. In becoming a Lutheran in 1984, I was almost kicked out of bible study classes because my questions were “too probing”, too “analytical”. But the pastor was too boring, too dogmatic for me. And I hate to be bored. That’s also why I quit the National Organization of Women. I’ve rarely, outside of religious groups, seen such a bunch of joyless women. I’ve also belonged to groups that were dynamic and productive, that had the ability to find humor in uncommon situations, while advancing the mission.

I have found that sometimes chaos can be a good thing. At times like that, it’s a whirlwind blowing the stultifying fog of everyday life out of one’s brain. Some of the most exciting things that have happened to me have been the result of great change. And I expect that I’m not done being changed, being challenged by life, being required to think in large pictures, needing to act in bold ways. Can you say that, Amanda?

I may be an old woman–after all, I’ve never pretended to be young on this blog–but I’ve never been a silly, young woman, so sure of her god concept that she’d go to her death for it, head high with a pride that is condemned in her own book. I know you must be embarassed to find your “scientist” was a fraud; if you aren’t embarassed, you should be. Here’s a piece of wisdom you won’t take: beware of your authorities! The denial system that props you and your like up is fragile. That is why you get so upset when the flaws in your reasoning are pointed out to you. But don’t feel alone–other fundies are experiencing it, too, even as we speak. Not just in this country but all over the world.

Religion is irrelevant; it’s an anachronism, an anomaly, a non-sequitur in our forward progress. More wisdom you won’t accept: you can’t stop time; you can’t roll it back to 1958, 1885, 1492, 1066 or 33ce; you can’t put the genie back in the bottle. But your need for god will prevent you from understanding what wisdom is. It keeps you in pre-adolescent acceptance of the status quo, of trusting in the words of your religious leaders. That works very well for them: without you and the other followers, they would be out of a job. Like buggy-whip makers in the early days of cars… Amanda, they have a vested interest in keeping you hooked on your religious meme.

Yes, I admit it, I pick on you. You seem to want to be martyred for your faith. I can continue to be one of Mel (The Anti-Semite) Gibson and you can continue to be the crucified christ. We can keep this up until one of us leaves. But don’t expect it to be me; after all, it’s a mystery why you even hang out here. You don’t really contribute anything new. It’s always the same programmed line that was taught to you from before you could speak. The same line that was taught to your parents and their parents and so on, back into antiquity.

It just occured to me why you’re here–you’re honing your skills for overcoming resistance to religion when you go out into the world on your recruiting missions. What better place to learn how to turn the conversation, to “baffle them with bullshit”, to smother them with words until they sign up just to get you to shut up. Fucking brilliant! If you survive in the belly of the atheist beast, you can survive anywhere, right?

We’re offering a free, introductory 12-Step recovery program, if you’re interested. “Break the god habit, in 28 Days.” For a change, you can be our guinea pig!

So I said:

It’s increasingly evident that you don’t read what I write before you decide to sound off about it. If you had read it, you would know that your statements like this, “It keeps you in pre-adolescent acceptance of the status quo, of trusting in the words of your religious leaders“ are wrong. I don’t blindly accept what “religious leaders” tell me anymore. I used to. Oh yes ma’am. For years I thought the KJV was “God’s preserved word in the English language” simply because I was taught that way. And if the preacher said it…then it must be right. But I learned better. Preachers, pastors, religious leaders…all are very fallible human beings. I don’t blindly accept anything a human says. Which again, is part of why I have been posting what I posted. It’s why I invited this group to participate in the discussion.

You seem to not be able to fathom that, Naomi. You have this idea of who I am so firmly ingrained in your head that you simply can’t accept any other alternative. Well I’m not who you think I am. I’ve not quoted Dr. Hovind or anyone else as gospel truth. I outlined what he taught in his video. I commented that I believe it to be true. I’m also fully aware that the people here do not believe it to be true. That’s where the discussion part comes in…but you seem to not know how to discuss differences of opinion.

You’ve asked twice now why I even come around here. There are a couple of reasons:

1) I respect the hell out of Martian.
2) I don’t want to be in a “Christian bubble” where the only people I interact with share my beliefs.
3) I am always challenged here. My beliefs are always challenged. Participating here has helped me grow. I’ve started to question some things and other beliefs have grown more solid.
4) I’m tougher than I look, and stubborn. I’m not going anywhere just because you pick on me.

So, am I wrong? I feel as if I’m goading her in some way, and that’s not my intention at all.

Tags: Christianity, Evolution, Creation Science